When were the boys' clothes removed?

[The Wolf]

Has anyone really analyzed when the boys' clothes were removed - before the initial attack, immediately after, or sometime later?  I am especially interested in identifying any evidence you think provides a timeframe for when this happened.   

[Paid]

  I've thought about it quite a bit, but I'm not sure the timing can ever be proven (without a confession by THe perp).


   My best guess is between 10:15 and 10:45 pm (about 3 hours after the initial attack).  

   Evidence supporting my guess:

    Bailey's sighting of Stevie wearing shorts.
    TH would not have known what Pam had last seen Stevie wearing until she gave the MPR at about 9:30 pm.
    10:15 pm would have been the first opportunity for TH to return to the scene and replace the shorts with the jeans.
    TH left Pam alone for almost an hour beginning at about that time.
    The opportunity was there because no other searchers were in the BB Woods.
    Baden determined that the boys were tied after death (or unconsciousness)
    The boys were tied after their clothes were removed....so the order of events was probably:  attack, clothes removed, tied-up.
    There was no sexual assault, so there was no other good reason to remove the clothes except to lessen the suspicion toward THe perp.
 
   Evidence against my guess:

    There was no blood found on the clothes.


  Possible reasons for no blood:

   The blunt force trauma to the victims' heads produced very little external bleeding (the other gash-type wounds were inflicted by animal predation or inadvertently by THe perp... post-mortem... after the clothes were removed).

    Any bloody clothes from the initial attack (maybe one or two shirts) were replaced with clothes from the backpack.



    * We know that the clothes were removed before the animal predation. Animal hairs were found under the bindings. So the clothes were removed before the victims were left unattended on dry land (hidden within a drainage structure) for several hours.

[Kim]

I'm putting this out there, but there's no way to prove it. One possibility for the removal of the clothes was to hide evidence of some kind. I've always wondered if the perp was injured in some way during the murders. It may not have been a major injury, but if he bled he would have known that he needed to get rid of any evidence with blood on it. This is pure speculation, but if he were to become wounded and he worried that blood got on even one item of clothing he may have removed all of the clothing so that one boy didn't stand out in particular. This could also be another reason to explain why he returned to the area.

If we do say that he was injured during the murders then it is most likely he came back later in the evening to remove the clothes. He had the opportunity to do this after Ryan and his friends left the woods. The best time to do something like that, in my mind, is right after the woods have been searched by someone else. It kind of gives him this window of time when he's free and clear to be alone with the crime scene.

I know the injury thing sounds highly speculative, but I always wonder about it. Terry Hobbs stuck around for a short time after the murders, but after a couple of weeks he left town and contacted a criminal attorney. Has anyone ever asked Pam if he had any unexplained injuries? I've never read her say that he did or didn't, but I've also never seen someone ask her directly.

[Paid]

  I'm not disagreeing with your possibility, Kim...but are you saying that THe perp replaced the clothes (that had his blood on them) or washed them?

[Kim]

It would be easiest to just replace one or more items of clothing. Like a white shirt with another white shirt. Weren't some of the clothes found cleaner than others? I just remember reading that some were really muddy, like the cub scout shirt, and others were not. I don't know if that means anything. I think that the jeans of Stevie's being found right-side out is a strong indication they were taken out of a drawer and replaced. That could be because of the shorts the Baileys saw though. Hobbs really did seem to want people to think he never saw the boys so I have to believe that if he found out Stevie was supposed to be in jeans he would be motivated to make that happen, so to speak.

The best way to get answers on this would be to put together some specific questions and ask Pam. She has more information about all of this than she thinks she does, but no one asks her the right questions.

[Paid]

   So....regardless or the reason, you agree with the timing of the removal of the clothes (several hours after the initial attack)?

[Kim]

I do. I have kind of a weird reason for thinking that the stripping and tying happened hours later, but also hours before the boys were dumped in the ditch. Again, I feel like I need a giant disclaimer here that says "SPECULATION AHEAD". Here goes.

I read that some people think that the boys were seated in a chair when they died. I don't think this, but I understand why it appears that way. So I thought about the theory of the children being dropped into a manhole structure. This makes sense considering the fractures. Since it is possible two of the boys were still barely alive after the attack, it is conceivable they curled up into a kind of fetal position. This is kind of an innate response to severe and traumatic injury. I'd have to go back through some texts to find the documentation of it though. I'm guessing that the boys may have been in a fetal position and tied in the most convenient way possible, either to remove from the structure or to ensure they couldn't wake up after being thrown in the ditch. Or both.

[former member]

Kim,
I can agree with you. If you look under the sheets in the nursing home where people are semi-conscious, you will find many of them in the fetal position. I think it is the body's way of comforting itself. It is also a common way to protect ones self. Think of this, what postion to we teach our children to get in a tornado drill... and what postion do they get in when they are in danger? It is the fetal postion with hands trying to protect the head/brain area. The body many times will do this naturally. It is interesting that you thought of it. I never did cater to the chair thing. Think of the position it would put the body in. It would be a bowed out torso instead of one sitting down. When the muscles in the legs contract, they bend into the fetal position. It mostly never comes out of it until death when that happens.

[former member]

And, people act like being thrown in the manhole is like falling to China and they should have had all their bones broken. Manholes really aren't that deep or wide so that injuries would be mainly just how they were found in this case. Most of those injuries didn't come by being dropped in the hole. Stevie's face got punched.
And, one reason to tie them up is that the body goes completely limp when there is no life in it. I worked in a nursing home. I would rather move someone who is contracted or who can hold on to me than a body that has arms dangling and legs that also are dangling. They are limp and nearly impossible for even two people to move. Like a ragdoll.
My sister and her husband have a hog farm. She said that they tie pigs like this to move them without causing limb injury. They don't use rope. They use cord... which is probably the thought that TH had when he was in a panic about what to do. Shoelaces must have been a miracle thought because they are similar to cord. Hogs are tied like that for easier transport when they won't move along by themselves. That is what you do. A person who worked with them on a daily basis for years would know that by rote.

[Tank]

  I've thought about it quite a bit, but I'm not sure the timing can ever be proven (without a confession by THe perp).


   My best guess is between 10:15 and 10:45 pm (about 3 hours after the initial attack).  I agree with this.

   Evidence supporting my guess:

    Bailey's sighting of Stevie wearing shorts.
    TH would not have known what Pam had last seen Stevie wearing until she gave the MPR at about 9:30 pm.
    10:15 pm would have been the first opportunity for TH to return to the scene and replace the shorts with the jeans. Did he return to the scene with only pants, and discover that other clothing items should be replaced as well? If that were the case, he had to have brought the extra items back on the 3rd trip, or was lucky enough to find replacements in backpacks. This would explain them never being found.
    TH left Pam alone for almost an hour beginning at about that time. I still wonder whether or not Pam remembers TH's behavior when he left her at this time. Had he taken some clothes out of the house when he left, concealed on his person perhaps? Or did he discover upon his return to the scene that he would need to exchange more than just Stevie's pants?
    The opportunity was there because no other searchers were in the BB Woods.
    Baden determined that the boys were tied after death (or unconsciousness)
    The boys were tied after their clothes were removed....so the order of events was probably:  attack, clothes removed, tied-up.
    There was no sexual assault, so there was no other good reason to remove the clothes except to lessen the suspicion toward THe perp.
 
   Evidence against my guess:

    There was no blood found on the clothes.


  Possible reasons for no blood:

   The blunt force trauma to the victims' heads produced very little external bleeding (the other gash-type wounds were inflicted by animal predation or inadvertently by THe perp... post-mortem... after the clothes were removed). Another, perhaps not appropriate in this thread, question I have always asked myself is, how exactly did TH "beat up" the boys (in the initial attack), and if it were fists, would there not have been evidence of this on the bodies (black eye/bruising)?

    Any bloody clothes from the initial attack (maybe one or two shirts) were replaced with clothes from the backpack. This is the more likely scenario, as TH may have found it difficult to locate and sneak clothing out in front of Pam for his return trip.



    * We know that the clothes were removed before the animal predation. Animal hairs were found under the bindings. So the clothes were removed before the victims were left unattended on dry land (hidden within a drainage structure) for several hours.

[former member]

I also think that some of the injuries that are curious to people were made by the ring he was wearing. I thought of that because of the ring I am wearing. It has a raised teardrop shape that could do some damage if I wanted it to. I am curious about the ring TH was wearing with the two half circles facing outward like an X or could have been a partial v/c shape according to the punch made that met in the arches. Any part of that ring could have actually made some curious shapes on the skin.

[The Wolf]

Lividity begins to work within about thirty minutes after the heart stops.  If a body is in contact with a hard surface, such as a chair or piece of rebar, the body will shows signs of this during lividity as this impression against the skin desplays itself as an indentation surrounded by gravity-pulled blood.  The "rebar pattern" on Stevie's leg appears to me to be such a lividity mark, but it is inconclusive on this question because it could have occurred with clothes on if he was wearing shorts.  I have seen pictures of the boys where it appears the waistbands of their pants or underwear left a mark more severe than would be the norm if the clothes fit properly.  Could those marks be lividity marks caused by the pressure of the waistband while the boys were in a fetal type position?  

[Kim]

Could those marks be lividity marks caused by the pressure of the waistband while the boys were in a fetal type position?  

Now that's a very good question.

[The Wolf]

    10:15 pm would have been the first opportunity for TH to return to the scene and replace the shorts with the jeans. Did he return to the scene with only pants, and discover that other clothing items should be replaced as well? If that were the case, he had to have brought the extra items back on the 3rd trip, or was lucky enough to find replacements in backpacks. This would explain them never being found.

I believe TH took Pam and Amanda home so Pam could shower and change out of her work uniform.  He left while she was doing this without explanation.  Since a pair of Stevie's jeans showed up at the discovery site, I believe he left with a pair of jeans.  He may have taken other clothing items if he knew or thought, for example, that Stevie's shirt had blood on it.

  Possible reasons for no blood:

   The blunt force trauma to the victims' heads produced very little external bleeding (the other gash-type wounds were inflicted by animal predation or inadvertently by THe perp... post-mortem... after the clothes were removed). Another, perhaps not appropriate in this thread, question I have always asked myself is, how exactly did TH "beat up" the boys (in the initial attack), and if it were fists, would there not have been evidence of this on the bodies (black eye/bruising)?

I think the initial blow was a strong backhand to Stevie's face that knocked him down with Stevie's head hitting the concrete collar around the volcano manhole.  When TH discovered how seriously he had injured Stevie, I think he expressed concern and enlisted Chris and Michael's help.  While they were over Stevie, TH grabbed both boys and slammed their heads against the concrete.  He then dumped the three into the manhole. I am not a forensics person, but I believe this accounts for almost all the injuries inflicted on the boys by a human.

    Any bloody clothes from the initial attack (maybe one or two shirts) were replaced with clothes from the backpack. This is the more likely scenario, as TH may have found it difficult to locate and sneak clothing out in front of Pam for his return trip.

If I am remembering correctly, the shirt found for Chris is different than the one he had on when he was under the carport.  The shirt found for Stevie may also have been different than the one he had on when seen by the Baileys.


    * We know that the clothes were removed before the animal predation. Animal hairs were found under the bindings. So the clothes were removed before the victims were left unattended on dry land (hidden within a drainage structure) for several hours.

This is an interesting proposition, but I am not sure it means there was a gap of hours between the undressing and binding.  Could the hairs have been deposited on the shoelaces and wrists while the boys were dressed, or transferred to the wrists and ankles during the undressing process?

[Tank]

    10:15 pm would have been the first opportunity for TH to return to the scene and replace the shorts with the jeans. Did he return to the scene with only pants, and discover that other clothing items should be replaced as well? If that were the case, he had to have brought the extra items back on the 3rd trip, or was lucky enough to find replacements in backpacks. This would explain them never being found.

I believe TH took Pam and Amanda home so Pam could shower and change out of her work uniform.  He left while she was doing this without explanation.  Since a pair of Stevie's jeans showed up at the discovery site, I believe he left with a pair of jeans.  He may have taken other clothing items if he knew or thought, for example, that Stevie's shirt had blood on it.

  Possible reasons for no blood:

   The blunt force trauma to the victims' heads produced very little external bleeding (the other gash-type wounds were inflicted by animal predation or inadvertently by THe perp... post-mortem... after the clothes were removed). Another, perhaps not appropriate in this thread, question I have always asked myself is, how exactly did TH "beat up" the boys (in the initial attack), and if it were fists, would there not have been evidence of this on the bodies (black eye/bruising)?

I think the initial blow was a strong backhand to Stevie's face that knocked him down with Stevie's head hitting the concrete collar around the volcano manhole.  When TH discovered how seriously he had injured Stevie, I think he expressed concern and enlisted Chris and Michael's help.  While they were over Stevie, TH grabbed both boys and slammed their heads against the concrete.  He then dumped the three into the manhole. I am not a forensics person, but I believe this accounts for almost all the injuries inflicted on the boys by a human.

    Any bloody clothes from the initial attack (maybe one or two shirts) were replaced with clothes from the backpack. This is the more likely scenario, as TH may have found it difficult to locate and sneak clothing out in front of Pam for his return trip.

If I am remembering correctly, the shirt found for Chris is different than the one he had on when he was under the carport.  The shirt found for Stevie may also have been different than the one he had on when seen by the Baileys.


    * We know that the clothes were removed before the animal predation. Animal hairs were found under the bindings. So the clothes were removed before the victims were left unattended on dry land (hidden within a drainage structure) for several hours.

This is an interesting proposition, but I am not sure it means there was a gap of hours between the undressing and binding.  Could the hairs have been deposited on the shoelaces and wrists while the boys were dressed, or transferred to the wrists and ankles during the undressing process? Could the animal hairs have been left all over the boy's shoes, if the shoes, and clothing were left in the bottom of the manhole, after they were undressed, on the second visit by TH, during some of the animal predation that may have occured in the shallow water at the bottom of the manhole? It seems more likely than it happening after depositing in the ditch. Also, could the hogtie's have been done last, during the second visit, in anticipation of the final return trip to move the bodies? This could also explain animal hairs on the bindings.[/color][/color]

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