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Author Topic: The Rule 37 Decision  (Read 4360 times)
Tank
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Who are the real victims of circumstance?


« Reply #90: January 25, 2010, 01:55:36 PM »
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"You're not going anywhere Colonel"!!! Wow...a REAL Judge!
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Larry- "We found a knife in a lake"
Curly- "It's an 11"
Moe-  "I'm tired of this case"
Justice
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« Reply #91: January 25, 2010, 03:29:33 PM »
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"You're not going anywhere Colonel"!!! Wow...a REAL Judge!


Exactly! Can you imagine Judge B's face had there been a real defense team on the wm3? " I want the truth " well um a .......... bawling
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Tank
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Who are the real victims of circumstance?


« Reply #92: January 25, 2010, 03:51:26 PM »
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Judge Moe..."Hey Colonel...watcha doin later Buuuuddddyyyy???"
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Larry- "We found a knife in a lake"
Curly- "It's an 11"
Moe-  "I'm tired of this case"
kimmyb
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« Reply #93: January 25, 2010, 05:57:08 PM »
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hi justice i just posted a new subject called hobbs/bojangles any connections? can you help me with it please as i'm stumped by it and cannot find anything on the subject thanks x kim x
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former member
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« Reply #94: January 26, 2010, 04:19:03 PM »
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Chickie... Thanks for your explanation. It had bothered me a lot about why Gideon didn't apply to this case. My major was Sociology/Journalism with  pre-law/English/business/CJ/Psy minors. I had intended to go to law school but found that the journalism route was also very effective. Plus, I was hoping and still hope that the law route is going to be for my son when he sees how futile Social Work is.
I really was impressed and appreciated your explanation. Very good. Thank you again, but it still seems to me that it does apply... but, that is just me. In the jury room, I would have so many questions that I would not have been able to come up with a guilty verdict even all these years later.
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« Reply #95: February 05, 2010, 12:51:48 PM »
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I have another attorney question. It is about the serrated knife. It was not necessary for the prosecution to identify a particular knife for the judge to determine that cuts were made to the boys by a serrated knife. Then why should the defense be held to a different level to prove animal predation and to hold it down to a particular animal or a particular species? Could not the testimony, in fact, be held down to animal predation/marine predation of particular animals known to that part of Arkansas and known to have visited or lived in RHH? That would, by general acceptance, be dogs, cats that stray the neighborhood at night, raccoons, squirrels, possums, snakes, turtles, crayfish, biting insects... the police officer himself said he was hesitant to go down into the water because of snakes. I would, myself, be hesitant because I know about water mocassins in Arkansas and other snakes that might be in that water. Every animal you could think of can be known to stick its head down in the water to take a drink... or to even be curious as to what might be in the water. And, every animal could be known to take a bite of food when it is made available to it like that. It is a wonder some animal, in pulling and tugging, didn't dislodge one of those little bodies.   
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The Wolf
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« Reply #96: February 05, 2010, 02:33:41 PM »
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I have another attorney question. It is about the serrated knife. It was not necessary for the prosecution to identify a particular knife for the judge to determine that cuts were made to the boys by a serrated knife. Then why should the defense be held to a different level to prove animal predation and to hold it down to a particular animal or a particular species?  


If there is a new trial and the State prosecutes upon the same theories and evidence as in the original case, the defense will be able to cross-examine the State's witnesses about alternative causes and timing of injuries and deaths, and to call its experts to testify as to the causes and timing of the injuries and death.  The same standards of admissibility will be applied to both sides. 

The problem for the WM3 is they had the theoretical opportunity at their original trials to present this evidence.  They just did not have the funds to obtain the experts they needed to both know about and present this evidence, and their attorneys (like most attorneys) did not have the independent medical expertise to ask the State's medical experts the right questions.  Without experts to testify or the knowlege needed to properly cross-examine, the State's medical evidence was not effectively challenged. 

The Rule 37 decision essentially asked did the WM3 prove their trials were fundamentally unfair because of this lack of access to necessary medical expertise.  Judge Burnett said the WM3 failed to prove their trials were fundamentally unfair.  The judge considered the animal predation evidence and conceded that some of the post-mortem injuries could have been caused by animals, although neither he nor the medical examiner agreed with the defense experts on the whole.  In any event, Judge Burnett decided the WM3 failed to establish that this evidence mattered.  The juries decided the WM3 were responsible for killing the boys and leaving them for the animals to prey upon.  The animal predation theory, to the extent Judge Burnett thought it might have been proven, did not establish a probability of a different verdict.  The turtles did not tie the boys up and put them in the ditch; the juries decided the WM3 did that.  The cause of post-mortem injuries was not likely to change that decision.

Judge Burnett's decision is overly simplistic and some of his findings of fact are supported by little or no competent evidence.  I will be disappointed if the appellate courts do not dig deeper and independently assess whether the original trials met the requirements of fundamental fairness. 
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whitegoddess
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« Reply #97: February 07, 2010, 05:22:23 PM »
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Quote
Judge Burnett's decision is overly simplistic and some of his findings of fact are supported by little or no competent evidence.  I will be disappointed if the appellate courts do not dig deeper and independently assess whether the original trials met the requirements of fundamental fairness.

 My sentiments also, yet far better worded.
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Damien says “I’m hesitant to put the finger on anyone because of what I’ve been through,” ...“I feel the two men whose DNA was found at the
scene are the most likely suspects.”
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« Reply #98: February 07, 2010, 05:47:39 PM »
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Thank you, Wolf. I liked your explanation really well. And, thank you for answering my question. A lot of this case is hard to understand how it has unfolded the way it has. I am glad that you have taken your time to clear up some of the confusing information about it.
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FishmongerDave
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« Reply #99: February 08, 2010, 08:17:27 PM »
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"The federal judge who sent Damien Echols' appeal back to state court -- where it was denied by Judge David Burnett -- has recused himself from the cases of Echols, Jessie Miskelly and Jason Baldwin. Judge William R. Wilson said in a very brief order that “some of the principals in this case are long-time acquaintances and friends of mine," and has stepped down from hearing the case."
      This bothers me.
      Were Fogleman and Davis not long-time acquaintances and friends of Burnett?   I know Stidham wasn't.


No, Paid, I'm pretty sure that the conflict had to do with Lloyd Warford -- remember, Wilson stepped off within a couple of weeks of the revelation that he'd submitted the affidavit on Kent Arnold.


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I would say time will tell, but my hope is the case never gets to Judge Miller.  I would rather see the Arkansas Supreme Court reverse Judge Burnett on his construction of the DNA statute, and remand the case back for the actual innocence analysis provided under that statute.



Not sure on that -- it would mean another trip down to the trial level in the State court.  According to Burnett, every judge in Jonesboro has recused from the case, so it would have to be heard elsewhere.  Does that mean an actual shot?  If they sent it to the opposite end of the state, might sanity prevail in an AR state court?  One thing is for sure ... it would mean a delay, maybe 2-3 years worth?  It would go back down, be reassigned, a hearing would be held (anywhere from a couple of months to ... well, we just saw the R 37 hearings take a year from when they finally started), then, if loses, another trip to the ASSC to exhaust state remedies....  I don't know.  No "bite at the apple" should be avoided, but - are his odds better in federal court, especially while we have Miller assigned to it?



Paid, the federal habeas was filed to avoid a limitations problem, that is to keep that option open.  I think Mr. Riordan was well aware he still had some exhaustion issues and I don't think he fought Judge Wilson (a good friend and one of my law school professors) on the point.  In other words, Mr. Riordan covered his bases by filing the federal habeas, just as he is covering his bases by filing motions to remand with the ASSC.  I assure you Mr. Riordan would be happy to accept a victory at the ASSC.  I can also assure you he will fight to keep the federal habeas case alive while the state courts proceed.  You never give up the last step, you just hope you don't need it to reach your goal.


Quote
Paid, the federal habeas was filed to avoid a limitations problem, that is to keep that option open.  I think Mr. Riordan was well aware he still had some exhaustion issues and I don't think he fought Judge Wilson (a good friend and one of my law school professors) on the point.

  Thank-you.
  I'm hearing so much from "the Echols' camp" stating that they just want to get out of State Court that I thought Riordan was trying to jump to Federal.
  I understand that they're frustrated with the pace of the system, but in this case...the delay may have helped due to the uncovering of new evidence.


Agreed 100%.  I also think he needs to amend it yet again (last time I hope) to include the new issues?



Sorry if this has been asked before (this question just came to me now, it's very possibly been discussed at length before and I just can't remember):

If the 3 were to have their convictions overturned based on technicalities (with no re-trial), would they have an opportunity to file actual innocence claims after that (or something similar)? Or would that be a bad move? I'm not sure what the process is, but would their convictions and prison time still remain on their records if it was overturned by a technicality? My only concern is they will still be considered criminals by the system (and I can't imagine child murderers are particularly employable etc...).


Not sure what you mean by "filing an actual innocence claim" - if the criminal case is over, it's over.  When someone (ASSC, subsequent state court judge, Judge Miller, of the 8th Circuit) reverses and vacates the conviction, the state will either retry them or it won't.

The only thing that will really "clear" them in the mind of the public is the arrest and successful prosecution of Hobbs.

If the convictions are reversed and either (1) they're not retried  or  (2) they are acquitted at a retrial, they're records are clear - no conviction as far the "official record."


Quote
Judge Burnett's decision is overly simplistic and some of his findings of fact are supported by little or no competent evidence.  I will be disappointed if the appellate courts do not dig deeper and independently assess whether the original trials met the requirements of fundamental fairness.

 My sentiments also, yet far better worded.


I'd love to think so, Wolf ..... but hasn't that ship sailed with the ASSC affirmance years ago?  Wouldn't an appellate court be reviewing only the issue of Burnett's ruling(s) on the Rule 37 actions?
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Jason, Damien, and Jessie are far from being alone

http://www.innocenceproject.org
The Wolf
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« Reply #100: February 08, 2010, 09:01:18 PM »
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Dave,

Like your Rutgers professor, I think if majority of the court feels there was something fundamentally wrong with the trials, they will find a way to fix it.  If I were on the Court, I would find a way.  So would you.
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Tags: misskelley baldwin byers maines burnett hobbs wm3 west memphis three echols rule 37 
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